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hanif
Junior Member   Posts: 10 Registered: 10/25/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/6/2004 at 11:20 PM |
Hiya Guys,
I know it's not autotheme related but here in the UK the media is going
nuts covering Kerry or Bush to whos going to be president. I didn't know
that the UK was part of America until the elections come up lol.
Anyway just some slight humour to past the day...
Kerry or Bush who gets your vote?
____________________
www.muslimprofessionals.org.uk
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Shawn
Administrator  Posts: 4608 Registered: 10/7/2002 Status: Online
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posted on 9/6/2004 at 11:54 PM |
America and liberties with responsibilities gets my vote! Bush!
-Shawn
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Mars
Moderator   Posts: 349 Registered: 3/11/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/7/2004 at 02:20 AM |
Bush.
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Zoom.
Newbie  Posts: 6 Registered: 9/8/2004 Status: Offline
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 posted on 9/8/2004 at 03:32 AM |
Are you guys breathlessly waiting to see who Blair's new best buddy will
be? lol!
Honestly I will probably hold my nose and vote for Kerry, even though his
chances seem slimmer everyday. I would prefer anything to this hypocrite
who has us nose deep in a religious war, or is that oil war. Maybe if Kerry
win's Cheney can run back to Halliburton and set up some more puppet
subsidiaries to invest in Iran and other countries were it is illegal for
american companies to do business!!
Oops, does that sound angry?
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jstuckemeyer
Moderator Posts: 577 Registered: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/8/2004 at 10:32 AM |
No, it just sounds ignorant.
Oil War. Bah. Unless I see you commuting to work on your tricycle, then
you have no room to complain. Many economies, including our own, rely on
oil. So even if some part of this war is about maintaining the necessary
oil supplies, then it still doesn't make it bad or the President the pawn
of oil cartelsl. Having said that, I don't believe the primary motivation
was oil. It would be cheaper just to help Russia and Venezuela build more
oil production facilities.
Haliburton? Capitalists -- yea! Show me some wrong doing and we'll send
someone to jail, but don't give me this anti-capitalist stuff. We live in
America damnit. Up to now, this is just more anti-Bush lefty rubbish.
W for me - 4 more years.
[Edited on 8/9/2004 by jstuckemeyer] ____________________
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Zoom.
Newbie Posts: 6 Registered: 9/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/8/2004 at 02:57 PM |
Last time I checked America was a democratic republic, not a capitalist
autocracy. Oh, and by the way, will you really put somebody in jail? We do
have a great track record of punishing white collar crimes don't we? Just
look at Martha. And just so we don't let the ignorance flounder, maybe you
should investigate how many subsidiaries Halliburton has and were they are
doing business. Dealings with countries like Iran are against the law for
American companies, you know they are terrorists right? But your right wing
friends are free to load there pockets with money returned on investment
from these countries as long as the sign on the door doesn't have a U.S.
address. Maybe you guys should make up your mind. Is it OK to support
terrorists, or not, and leave the fine lines and grey areas alone. You are
the morally upstanding party right?
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jstuckemeyer
Moderator Posts: 577 Registered: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/8/2004 at 07:00 PM |
I think you are missing my point. My point is that capitalism is a good
thing - not a bad thing. The US of A has always had a immigrant driven
free economy. Martha Stewart was tried by a jury of her peers and sent to
prison. She was a little fish - a bunch of real tycoons also went or on
their way to prison. They defrauded little American investors out of
investments and pensions. I'm not a defender of capitalist raiders, but I
am a defender of capitalism.
If their was truth beyond the Haliburton smears, then it would have come
out by now. So **** Cheney got rich running Haliburton - so what? John
Kerry is filthy rich from his ketchup selling heiress. Bush got rich in
oil and baseball teams. John Edwards is arich trial lawyer whore. Your
blanket statements suggest that you hate all for-profit corporations.
Capitalism and a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" attitude is what
built and sustains America. I dunno - maybe you are a European. Maybe you
sit on your ass all day long waiting for the dole. Fine to have that
view, but don't pontificate on things you don't understand.
The Haliburton story hasn't played in America anymore that the Kerry?Heinz
ketchup fortune has played in American. Average Ameicans don't loathe
thoser who have accumulated wealth and they don't think the wealthy should
be demonized or punished for their success.
Your goofy statements about Iran are simply mistatements. Few of the
weapon employed by Iran or Iraq came from the United States. The last arms
sold in that area by American companies were the ones sold/given to the
Afghan rebels over 20 years ago. By contrast, the US Military has found
piles of French, German and Chinese munitions. The French and Germans are
up to their navels in UN Oil for Food graft money and scandal. Americans
know these facts. We are not sheep to chased around by scandal mongering
ankle-biters. And this despite an unrelentingly liberal press that is
simply beside itself due to the fact that Pres. Bush has gained an 11 point
lead over Kerry.
Americans either agree with the War in Iraq or don't agree. Both view
points are legitimate in a democracy. Few Americans, however, believe the
conspiracy bullshit spewed by the ill informed, the stupid or the devious.
Likewise, Americans are rallying to President Bush because he means what he
says and says what he means. Only history will be able to judge the
rightness of his decisions. We have no idea what to make of Kerry.
Unprincipled, arrogant, dishonest all come to mind.
For my part, I have two small children that mean everything to me. I feel
in my heart that President Bush is doing what must be done to protect their
futures. All your pissing and moaning is just white noise to me ... and
fortunately I appear to be in the majority.
Whew ... haven't typed that much in years ...
[Edited on 8/9/2004 by jstuckemeyer]
[Edited on 8/9/2004 by jstuckemeyer] ____________________
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Zoom.
Newbie Posts: 6 Registered: 9/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/8/2004 at 11:40 PM |
First off I think you are missing my point, I never made any blanket
statements about capitalism. In fact that is far beyond the scope of my
point. I am also sure it comforts you to assume anyone with a different
opinion must be an uneducated, lazy, welfare receiving slob. Yes, welfare
paid for the brand new laptop I am writing on right now!
The law I am referring to was passed by the United States congress to limit
U.S. investment in states considered to be supporting terrorist activities.
Why, because those dollars invested can be used to purchase weapons,
regardless of where the weapons come from. It has nothing to do with the
French, the Chinese, or any other state; it has to do with the U.S. and our
conscience. And yes these subsidiaries of Halliburton and the issues of
them doing business in Iran and Libya have been in the mainstream U.S.
press. The point here is that some people hover above the law, insulated by
wealth and power. They are not playing in the same playing field as you and
I, quote unquote “pulling themselves up by the bootstraps”. Or do you
really consider George a self made man? Bill Gates, maybe, George Bush,
please. Oh, and what were you saying about Afghan weapons. What about the
stinger missile that almost blew an Israeli airliner out of the sky in
Sudan recently. Is that a soviet weapon? Oh, but yes, it’s all conspiracy.
Or maybe it’s about holding our leaders accountable to the same laws and
moral standards they would have us be bound by?
If you really want to talk about conspiracy, then do a little research
about American involvement in Peru, El Salvador and Guatemala from
1950-1975. It’s well documented history. But if you read the papers of the
day you wouldn’t know Guatemala existed. In fact Noam Chomsky has a great
book on the subject. But hey, I guess he is some lefty conspiracy freak
watching the X-files all day. Look back across American history. The
establishment and their lock step marching drones have always pointed at
dissent with the same petty, ridiculous charges, calling them left wing
communists, paranoid conspiracy theorists. Yes, your right McCarthy was
protecting freedom. No U.S. dollars were not used to support terrorist
activities against democratically elected officials of other states. But
hey, I suppose the end justifies the means. Is that our American ideal?
Please, stop getting your information from T.V. and telling everyone else
they are ignorant.
Cheers until tomorrow, that includes you damn Europeans.
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Zoom.
Newbie Posts: 6 Registered: 9/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/8/2004 at 11:56 PM |
P.S. Your right about Kerry, he is an ass, thus IF I vote for this ass I
will be holding my nose wishing that the two party lock on politics and the
money that fuels this system would end. I don’t dislike republicans; I
count a very small few as friends. I even would have voted for John McCain
in 2000 if he had beat Bush. Why, because even though our politics might be
different I believe he is a truly ethical man. The constitution is in place
to protect my rights as a citizen, I don’t need a leader that believes what
I believe, I just need one with ethics, And I believe Bushes ethics are
only skin deep. Look what Rove and the Bush campaign did to smear McCain in
2000. Now we have two unethical smear artists telling us there is a choice,
please. Stop this madness!
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Shawn
Administrator Posts: 4608 Registered: 10/7/2002 Status: Online
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posted on 9/9/2004 at 12:23 AM |
The simple fact is, that for all intensive purposes there are only 2
candidates right now. There's not much anyone can do about it, at least
for this election. And all the crap flying and all of the debates (the
majority of which are way outside of the issues), are just that, crap.
I choose to take my top priorities (let's say 3) and vote on whom I think
and/or know from actions will best meet those priorities.
1. National security and defense in general
2. Lower taxes, and what taxes I pay I have preferences of where I would
rather see that money go (not a slew of social programs)
3. Sovereignty (and pride in Sovereignty) with fairness, not pandering
Outside of the defense arena, I choose to look at it this way: success is
not the number of people that are helped by my tax dollars and the social
programs that they support. Success is the number of people that no longer
need my tax dollars supporting these social programs, because they have the
incentive and opportunity to make it themselves.
One cool indicator in the defense area is that our miltary re-enlistment is
at an all time high right now. The 7th Marines (Semper Fi!) in Iraq have a
higher re-enlistment percentage than they have ever had, back to or before
WWII. So the guys who would die for us and our families and die for our
right to berate them and burn the flag, still see this as a very worthy
cause and worth dying for.
Bush is definitely not perfect and if I could build a president, it
wouldn't be him. But I don't think my president would have any of JK's
charactaristics, ethics or values.
Drunk and jumbling my thoughts, but that's what I got for now.
-Shawn
[Edited on 9/9/2004 by Shawn]
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Zoom.
Newbie Posts: 6 Registered: 9/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/9/2004 at 01:44 AM |
Ok, thinking out load. I will agree Democrats have quit a record of
throwing money at problems. But in a sense I think the old debate over
lower taxes vs. increased spending on social programs has changed radically
since the 70-80’s. To my understanding of economics I believe most of the
boon in the Regan years was due to deregulation. Obviously lowering taxes
on corporate entities was a key component of his policy, but in the end a
lot of economists argue it was the destabilizing of static, bloated sub
sectors of the economy, like the airline industry, that in a sense gave new
life to static sectors through increased competition. And obviously looking
back across our distant and recent(enron) history, there is a need for
regulation. But with the tech boom on our heels and an economy that has
been booming for years I really wonder at the wisdom and efficacy of a
policy that reduces taxes and raises debt (national). Is the economy really
going to see enough benefit to erase the dangers of rising inflation caused
by debt? In the Regan era and before inflation was an economy killer.
Interest rates were extremely low at the time bush was/is advocating tax
cuts. Mind you after previous serious tax cuts. Yet we are spending
billions on a war that is being paid for by running a deficit. Seriously,
is this fiscal responsibility? Honestly I don’t know the answer to the
economy, but I am not sure it is bad enough to run a deficit just after
balancing the budget. And no, I am not giving credit to Clinton; I think
the new tech sector was responsible for that. In the end I think we will
not see quite the boom we saw in the 90’s for awhile. New technology tends
to have that effect. But is Bush going to chase that bubble until your
taxes have to be increased to pay for rising debt and inflation?
Anyway?
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Shawn
Administrator Posts: 4608 Registered: 10/7/2002 Status: Online
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posted on 9/9/2004 at 03:36 AM |
Dunno. Since you bring up Reagan, it's the same argument all over again.
His policies were wrong and wouldn't work. However they did  Same thing
here. Economics is witch doctor science, but there are some things that
have been done that have proven to work. Deficit spending, yep it was the
worst disaster in the world when Reagan did it. However, his policies
(including deficit spending) lead to the largest economic growth in the
history of our great country. Oh, wait, until now that is.
And as I said about economics, it is witch doctor science. Not real and
not a science. Take your deficit leads to inflation scenario. It sounds
great and the economists preach it, however the facts and the history of
our country and our economy don't bear it out. Quite to the contrary
actually. Just like raising interest rates to curb inflation. That's been
proven wrong multiple times and has never been proven accurate, yet it is
the theory still.
My words of wisdom (if I have any) are to look at what is important to you
in a real sense, see what is most logical (without over analyzing) and see
what has proven to work.
I for one have always looked for results and not what the media, naysayers
and/or economists would say. Because 99% of the time, they are all wrong.
Look at what has been done or is being done and see if it works for the
outcome that you yourself want.
Theories and/or strategies born out of college economics or poly-sci or
even from the intelligentsia of our time, sadly are more often flat out
wrong than they are even close to correct.
Actually, since the first several years of Reagan, myself, my family,
everyone I know and almost everyone that I hear about has been doing great!
With the minor exception of a year or two when the .com bubble busted and
I and many others were laid off one or more times and the tech market was
in sad shape. This I don't even entirely blame on Clinton. It was just
the hype of the tech sector and a new exciting market that was over
blown.
If we can live this good and at the same time respond to an eminent threat
and help to put a piece of the world on the right track to stability at the
same time, then I'm overjoyed!
-Shawn
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Zoom.
Newbie Posts: 6 Registered: 9/8/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/9/2004 at 04:28 AM |
I agree, in a sense, the best theory is often outwitted by the best
reality. However, as I stated, maybe not clearly enough, I am still not
convinced there will really be any solid benefit from tax-cuts any deeper
than they are now at this point in time. I guess time will tell. As a more
socialist leaning (capitalist reality living) person I really want to key
in to your last point. If we can have our cake and eat it too why not
venture into the realm of universal health care, expanded investment in
education. Yes, I have seen my health care costs rise (I would guess
20%/year) under this administration. So much for the tax cut! I think there
is a lot more to a healthy society than just a booming economy. There are
choices to be made. This president wants us all to believe it is a wise
investment to spend our excess fighting terrorism and that he can eradicate
terror from the world. Sorry to say but as long as we have such severe gaps
in wealth and power there will always be, and has always been terrorism.
And to look at reality as our guide, no super power has ever prevented or
eradicated such terror. Yet here we are with a President who says he can,
all the while bringing a tone of religious right into a battle with
religious extremist, foolish at best. I don’t believe this is the right
choice. I think there are much more pressing “eminent dangers”, For
example, a workforce that needs to be retrained, or initially trained, to
deal with a changing economy. Healthcare costs that cut into the incomes of
most Americans, the middle class. I am nowhere near as convinced that Bush
will fit the bill when it comes to these challenges as so many seem to be.
In the end it is not simply our economy and how much money is in your
pocket that sets us apart from other countries and that has made this
country great. It is also socialist ideas like free and equal access to
education. Does an educated populace benefit the economy, I think so, and
history shows us it does. But then again history shows us wars are great
for the economy too. Maybe that’s what Bush is banking on?
Cheers!
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jstuckemeyer
Moderator Posts: 577 Registered: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/9/2004 at 12:19 PM |
Sheesh you two are prolific. You must both be welfare bums (joke).
I really can't figure out where the notion that W has no values or ethics
come from. Sure he was a rich kid, but aren't they all these days? I'd
rather have some common folks as candidates, but the system largely
prevents that possibility. There is some truth to W employing smear
campaigns, but who doesn't these days? Look at MoveOn.org comparing W to
Hitler.
I see W as an honest and mostly simple man. When he tells us he is going
to do something he does it. No waffling, little pandering - just action.
Its one thing to disagree with policies, its another to demonize the man.
I also don't like the demonization of John Kerry. However, his record
seems to indicate a man without principle.
I like the President's policies. I don't see a veil of conspiracy
everywhere I look. I like a quiet and simple life where I am trying to
raise my family. I feel that the President is doing everything he can to
protect us. Moreover, I like his family value, belief in the lord and
conservative economics. No, I don't agree with all "so-called" republican
social values, but then neither does most of America (or even most
republicans I'd wager).
You can trot out all of Noam Chomsky's conspiracy theories, but I have
trouble swallowing much of them. Iran-Contra? Were laws broken? Yes and
we spent a zillion dollars investigating and prosecuting. Was Reagan
involved? Probably? But look at the end result - peace in Latin America.
Thriving democracies in place of Salvadoran rebels and dictators like
Noriega. Peace will hopefully lead to economic prosperity - the only
long-term solution to terrorism and genocide. Dictators fall when people
dream and feel empowered.
I sometimes feel conflicted by all the laws and prohibitions that bind our
presidents. Necessary, probably, but always correct, unlikely. I look
around and I see much good in the world due largely to the efforts of the
US of A - including the overthrow of Sadaam and the Taliban. Only history
will judge, but I think we are on the right track.
As for corporations running America - so what. Go to Washington or your
state capitol and see for yourself how our government functions.
Corporations exist in the world that we built - including the lobbyists and
PAC money. That doesn't make it evil - it is merely the way you get things
done.
There are certainly bad corporations from time to time, but most
corporations are simply that. They fill my gas tank, power my lights, make
my clothes and toys, etc etc. In my 37 years (including 12 as a corporate
drone), I've never seen anything intrinsically bad in corporate America.
In fact, I could argue that acadamia is more hurtful to America than
corporate America. ____________________
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Purus
Newbie Posts: 5 Registered: 9/22/2004 Status: Offline
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posted on 9/28/2004 at 02:25 PM |
Why should I vote? No one gives a **** how some little New Yorker votes.
Kerry and Bush obviously don't care because I have never seen one campaign
ad in my entire life (only 18 years) living in New York. And why don't they
care? Because my vote means nothing. No matter how I vote, Kerry is going
to win every single electoral vote in New York. Bush and Kerry both know
that and as a result don't pay any attention to us New Yorkers. If it
weren't for the news, I wouldn't even know there was an election running.
My vote means nothing. This election is being decided by the citizens of
Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, etc... The rest of us may as well sit home and
enjoy the show.
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jstuckemeyer
Moderator Posts: 577 Registered: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/14/2004 at 11:01 AM |
| I care how you vote. I live in Illinois where a Kerry victory is also a
certainty. Nevertheless, I'm going to cast my vote for Bush. Maybe
someday Illinois will become more conservative! ____________________
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