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Duster

Junior Member

Posts: 32
Registered: 2/15/2004
Status: Offline

posted on 6/21/2004 at 10:15 AM

Hi Shawn,

I hope you don't mind me posting this message here. I don't have your e-mail address and I can't PM you over on the PN forums. I found out this morning that I was banned.

Your sarcasm over the users all of a sudden becoming unruly was well placed. I don't like what PN has become and I will not tolerate an oppressive regime where moderators think they can quell dissatisfaction by locking and deleting discussions and banning users.

Quite naturally, I have pulled my support for PN and will be moving to another CMS at the earliest opportunity. I have some modules that have to be tested and possibly recoded before I can switch.

I guess I'll never see PN .8 now. I'll be using something else by the time it comes out

Shawn

Administrator

Posts: 4548
Registered: 10/7/2002
Status: Online

posted on 6/21/2004 at 11:15 AM

I'm sad to hear that bud. It's definitely a sorry state of affairs over there. It's hard for me to tell exactly who's responsible but from all appearances Drak is one of the main offenders (it seems that way, because eveyone else in PN, lays blame at his feet when issues arise). Seems like he just came in and somehow gradually installed himself as "Grand Potentate". I don't know that though, it's just a perception at this point.

-Shawn
autotheme AT mckenzies DOT net

[Edited on 6/21/2004 by Shawn]

Duster

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Posts: 32
Registered: 2/15/2004
Status: Offline

posted on 6/21/2004 at 02:49 PM

It's an accurate perception. Remember that Grizzly (how aptly named, he sure has the disposition of one) said he asked Drak to ban me. Since I pulled my documentation last month because of Halbrook revoking my pnCorps permissions, he had no reason to disagree with Griz. Fairness is certainly not an issue at PN.

Obviously, I can't stay with a CMS where I can't ask any questions. There are lots of other CMS programs out there and many have better organized sites and communities. I'll just have to go from PostNuke to PastNuke.

I was just set to begin working with one of the PN developers on some sorely needed improvements to PN (regarding profle and registration). The timing could have been worse. I won't have wasted my efforts.

Another thing too. In the past week I located a module a lot of people have asked for (one that allows site members to create their own pages on a PN site). I haven't heard back from the owner yet,but I would have felt stupid if I shared that and then got banned.

It's their loss, not mine. I became disenchanted with the people behind PN and withdrew my public support. You might have noticed that I hadn't posted much in the last month. I was working with some of the developers (I''ve got an eye for detail and I'm a great idea man.) Alas, that is over now too.

Shawn

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Posts: 4548
Registered: 10/7/2002
Status: Online

posted on 6/21/2004 at 03:02 PM

Welsome to MD-Pro. Check the forums and start talking with the devs and community leaders. It's a great place and I love it.

-Shawn

Duster

Junior Member

Posts: 32
Registered: 2/15/2004
Status: Offline

posted on 6/21/2004 at 10:35 PM

I've had my eye on it for awhile. I've been watching the development of Xaraya for several months, I even tried installing it once but had problems so I dropped it for awhile. I think it was this site (yours) that made me aware of MD-Pro and I've been watching it too, including that ill conceived April Fool "joke".

I haven't had any incentive to install it, but now that I do, I may get to it by the end of the week. If all my modules work, I might start July with a whole different CMS

[Edited on 22/6/2004 by Duster]

jstuckemeyer

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posted on 6/22/2004 at 05:10 AM

Drak. Yup - he banned me, Lobos and InfoPro.

Harry needs to wake up and get rid of Drak before he destroys the Postnuke community.

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Duster

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Posts: 32
Registered: 2/15/2004
Status: Offline

posted on 6/22/2004 at 02:11 PM

I knew about Lobos being banned as he PM'd me and told me before I was banned. So they got Infopro too? Clearly, their lies to the contrary, they are just getting rid of anyone who dares voice dissent. I suppose my call to have them removed was all the cause they needed. They have to lie to rationalize it. They are trying to put out a fire using gasoline.

All in all, they may have done me a favor. Ive been unhappy with the way things were at PN and I could see it getting worse. The management is terrible and the defunct pnCorps is no better. It was certainly no team. What happened recently is ample evidence that my vision was all too true. Things got worse. I've been keeping an eye on Xaraya and MD Pro but I had no pressing reason to switch over. I even tried installing Xaraya once but had problems with it.

I like what I see with MD Pro. It is way ahead of PN in documentation. The site is much easier to navigate. there is actual communication, and development happens at a much faster rate then with PN. Anything happens faster that the development rate at PN. I've been waiting for .8 for over 2 years. Every time it was supposed to be close, they slip in another slightly tweaked version instead. PN .8 was supposed to be the next after .723 Instead we got .726 The talk about .8 resumed and they slipped in .75. I think .8 is a myth

I posted my impressions (in a post entitled I'm Impressed) about MD Pro on their forum. I've already downloaded it and wil try it out this week. If my new custom modules work, I will likely be using it by the first of July and will be PastNuke at that point, leaving PostNuke to implode. The whole affair has given me insight into why so many people have left PN in the past (voluntarily).

smurfie

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Posts: 12
Registered: 6/24/2004
Status: Offline

posted on 6/24/2004 at 04:35 AM

I am also newbie here so I had better watch my P's Q's then,this is why I joined this forum hopeing it would not be like other forum with stand over tactics and disruptive officials who create a storm over a t=Cup.hope I am not next to go i just got here.So many forums people are leaving because of arguements and bannings.Hope to see you all again soon...

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mhalbrook

Junior Member

Posts: 22
Registered: 12/29/2002
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posted on 6/24/2004 at 01:43 PM

In regards to the Bannings,

1. Lobos was banned by Drak and Drak alone, and we have questioned this and not had any response to this.
2. InfoPro was banned by Drak and Drak alone, but we don't oppose the ban. He jumped over the line of reasonable discussion with both feet by calling me an idiot and attacking me as a moderator in a thread that moderation had nothing to do with.
3. Duster ban was done by request, but I belive is founded based on his history in the forums, While I freely admit I can become quite vocal in defending my opinions and sometimes get intense in my arguing of my point, Duster argues for arguments sake, and deliberatly and intentionally attacks anyone he disagrees with. He knows that certain people will respond in kind to him, Myself and ColdRolledSteel included, and intentionally pushes buttons to illicite the arguments he wants to engage in. It is for this reason that his ban was requested and approved. It had nothing to do with the points of his recent posts, but because of a long history of issues with him.
4. AutoThemes was banned also at request, not mine either, because he oversteped the bounds of questioning the policies. I purposly split off Lobos' response to the Annoucement policy so that people who disagreed with it could raise their concerns. AutoThemes chose to put his two cents in about the moderators, mostly me, where ever He could, regardless of wether is was even remotely appropriate or not.

No one has been banned because of having dissenting opinions, if that were the point, then HammerHead and I would be gone too, because I guarantee we've been more of a thorn in the side of management than any of you have been to us.

Duster

Junior Member

Posts: 32
Registered: 2/15/2004
Status: Offline

posted on 6/24/2004 at 06:40 PM

quote:
In regards to the Bannings,
Duster argues for arguments sake, and deliberatly and intentionally attacks anyone he disagrees with.

You're a liar. I have never done that.

If there were any truth to that, it would be an easy thing to find posts that indicate it. I have responded brusquely to people who have criticized me, but you can't find a single case wherein I initiated an attack on anyone.

Put up or shup up, mendacious one.

quote:
He knows that certain people will respond in kind to him, Myself and ColdRolledSteel included, and intentionally pushes buttons to illicite the arguments he wants to engage in.

This never happened and thus there can be no proof of it. Besides, if it had been true, wouldn't that make you responsible for responding? I know you advised me once or twice to ignore posts about me. Now you are being a hypocrite, and a lying one at that. It's getting harder to keep your lies straight, isn't it?

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive"

CRS got a burr under his saddle a couple of times and became critical of me, an annoyance. He was civil, but an annoyance all the same. I dismissed the first such outbreak as him being in a bad mood over something PN as indicated in another PN forum.I believe it was the way PN handles languages. When he persisted, and then later said he would stop doing so, it wasn't 10 minutes until he broke his word. At that point, I told him to stop being a liar and remain quiet as he said he would. I used humor and humiliation to stop his annoyances. I learned years ago that an embarrassment to one’s ego is a better weapon to end arguments than the most reasoned appeal to logic and decency.

That disharmony has not prevented me from helping him as a beta tester for statistics and other things long after the discord was over. In fact, I was the first to discover a problem with v 6. As far as I am concerned, our little disagreement is a thing of the past. I don’t hold a grudge.

It is you who have responded to me in an uncivil fashion, you liar. Have you so soon forgotten my review of the church site? I did a humorous, themed appraisal of the guy's site and you called me an arrogant ass. Even when the guy said he got the humor and appreciated it, rather than acknowledging your mistake and apologizing, as any decent human being would do, you tried to justify your remarks. Furthermore, this was one of the many times you told me how I should word things. You are a martinet, a control freak, even to telling people how they should talk. I will not restrict myself to your limited vocabulary or narrow way of seeing things.

Even before you joined the pnCorps, you just could not resist meddling in my affairs and interjecting your unwanted and useless opinion.

You are a very prejudiced individual and hold grudges. There has been a lot of criticism of you lately, acknowledging your closed mind and controlling manner. What is the common denominator? YOU are it!

PostNuke suffers because of you. In a post where someone asked for information, I provided a URL where he could get it. You responded, saying I should provide more information or be diplomatic. First, there was no more information to provide. He only had to read the information at the link I provided. I wasn't about to read it to him. Second, there was nothing undiplomatic in providing that link. He could read it or not as he chose with no comments on his decision either way from me.

I did reply to you saying that I would answer in whatever civil fashion I chose. That must have threatened you considerably and infuriated you since you sent me private messages trying to exert your power and bend me to your will. You are either too big a control freak or too stupid to know what civil means or both.

I had already taken note that despite earlier differences over your lack of teammanship and communication as a member of the pnCorps over the FAQ, that you had once again moved items around, even though it did not make sense to do so. Your emotional control problems and/or stupidity over not knowing what civil means led you to revoke my pnCorps permissions, even though you didn't have the right to do so. It was your site but the pnCorps is not yours to command. Naturally, you did it without notice. You work in the dark, like roaches. Since you lack the decency to apologize when you are wrong, it does not surprise me that you lack the decency to give notice of your actions.

That annoyed me so I removed most of the documentation I wrote and withdrew my public support. I chose to work behind the scenes with developers, both core and third party. I made very few posts on the forum in the last month or so.

When I posted a notice to that effect,including why, Drak asked if I might reconsider as I had long been a help to the community. I suppose my declination made it easy for him to acquiesce to Grizzly's request. That was a mistake as I could have helped considerably more by shaping PN through working with the developers. Now that is over too.

quote:

It had nothing to do with the points of his recent posts, but because of a long history of issues with him.

I'd call that a lie or unfairness. It was because of a recent post, the one saying forum moderators should be removed for a heavy handed, oppressive manner. People have questioned a post that was locked that I objected to being locked The fact that it was later unlocked is proof enough that it should never have been locked in the first place. Thus, I was right in my objection and the unlocking vindicated my objection.

If it was not a result of my post calling for removal of the moderators (which I doubt) then it is unfair and based on your personal animosity to me, especially as I had not been posting much lately so there was little chance there would be any posts anyone could object to.

quote:
No one has been banned because of having dissenting opinions,

That’s a lie and no matter how times you repeat it, it cannot be made into the truth.

Thank you for airing your lies in a forum where I can respond.

[Edited on 25/6/2004 by Duster]

smurfie

Junior Member

Posts: 12
Registered: 6/24/2004
Status: Offline

posted on 6/24/2004 at 07:33 PM

After reading all this post I start to wonder,we have but over 2000 members plus here in this rather unique forum ,and I rather like it,it only take a few to spoil it for others,so come now bury the hatchet and get on with forum friendships they are so hard to find,I saw a forum like this, i was part of and it ,destroyed it completly over 250 members and now its closed.its hard to get forum up and running ,and then another story to get members to join it ,so you not want to loose any here I am shure.As for Moderators sometime you wonder is it worth while having them,well yes it is ,staff need help when you have many members, you cant help all members all the time,even if sometimes we may make a mistke occasionally,we are all for doing there job ,would you do any better, think of it.Its a thankless job at times and one I dont like at times,I hate to tell people you have to do this, do that, but someone has to other wise what a mess a forum can turn into.Now this is only my opinion and if you dissagree with thats fine at least I had my say. So all the staff here I think you are doing a resonable job...have nice day now.

lifes to short to argue, i'm for fun and fun for all.

[Edited on 25/6/2004 by smurfie]

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Shawn

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Registered: 10/7/2002
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posted on 6/24/2004 at 09:29 PM

Moohahaha! I have all the power now! Maybe I'll ban some people or delete this whole fuc|<ing thread. mooohahaha!!!

-Shawn

Hmmm... but I can't seem to override the censor in my own forum.

[Edited on 6/25/2004 by Shawn]

Shawn

Administrator

Posts: 4548
Registered: 10/7/2002
Status: Online

posted on 6/24/2004 at 09:42 PM

quote:
I am also newbie here so I had better watch my P's Q's then,this is why I joined this forum hopeing it would not be like other forum with stand over tactics and disruptive officials who create a storm over a t=Cup.hope I am not next to go i just got here.So many forums people are leaving because of arguements and bannings.Hope to see you all again soon...

Hi smurfie,

This thread is not refering to this site or these forums. They are refering to forums.postnuke.com, where it appears that the whole damn place is turning into a socialist dictatorship of some sort.

-Shawn

smurfie

Junior Member

Posts: 12
Registered: 6/24/2004
Status: Offline

posted on 6/24/2004 at 09:43 PM

Shawn what country are you from ,normally i would ask in PM but they are not in this forum.Myself Australia

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Shawn

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posted on 6/25/2004 at 08:31 AM

I am from the great state of Texas U.S.A!

-Shawn

Spire2000

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posted on 6/25/2004 at 12:21 PM

Cummon Shawn, it's not a socialist dictatorship of any kind. There've been some mistakes made in the past few weeks, but people have owned up them and some of us are trying to fix them. I know I haven't exactly the most visible face in all this, but I've tried to keep an even keel between both sides, since I can see each perspective on this mess.

Question, what will it take for all of us to be able to move on?

Duster

Junior Member

Posts: 32
Registered: 2/15/2004
Status: Offline

posted on 6/25/2004 at 01:44 PM

quote:
Cummon Shawn, it's not a socialist dictatorship of any kind. There've been some mistakes made in the past few weeks, but people have owned up them and some of us are trying to fix them.

How can you fix being a lying, oppressive moderator who boots people out for objecting to their oppressive tactics? You're not talking about mistakes. You are talking about deliberate vindictive acts of removal. Some things cannot be undone.

quote:

I know I haven't exactly the most visible face in all this, but I've tried to keep an even keel between both sides, since I can see each perspective on this mess.

Is this what you call an even keel, posting lies "No, let's remove anyone who has little to offer AND goes on a crusade against every decision made by the forum moderators, trying to make them look bad at every step."

I haven't gone on any crusade and the only decision I criticized is the locking and deletion of posts. I abstained from all the discussion criticizing Halbrook and PN management. No one needs to help you guys look bad. You are doing an exemplary job of that totally unassisted.

Do you know why you look bad? It's because you all did bad things, and are still doing them.

Trying to play the victims or martyrs won't work either. YOU guys are the bad guys!

Before you play word games again and accuse me of semantics, let me ask you this. Suppose Halbrook pushed you off a tall building or a cliff. Would you blame him for killing you? He can use your reasoning and say that he only pushed you. It would be the sudden stop that killed you and he had nothing to do with that. Either way you're gone. You guys are using that same type of reasoning, not I. "We didn't delete the messages. We only moved them where no one but moderators can see them." Sounds like deletion to me from the pn user's perspective.

"I didn't kill Spire. I only pushed him off the building" Same difference. Gone either way.

quote:

Question, what will it take for all of us to be able to move on?

It will happen eventually, but you guys lit the match and poured the gasoline. Suffer the heat for as long as the fire burns. Burn, baby burn.

Your mentally and morally inferior Bund member says "InfoPro and Duster had little of value to offer anymore," PN knew nothing about meta tags until I instructed Mark on them. I've got a lot more knowledge and value to offer and some of the developers know it as I've been working behind the scenes. I may have taught your developers everything they know on certain subjects, but I didn't teach them everything I know.

Slugger was right. Your loss is MD-Pro's gain.

[Edited on 25/6/2004 by Duster]

Shawn

Administrator

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Status: Online

posted on 6/25/2004 at 03:32 PM

quote:
Cummon Shawn, it's not a socialist dictatorship of any kind. There've been some mistakes made in the past few weeks, but people have owned up them and some of us are trying to fix them. I know I haven't exactly the most visible face in all this, but I've tried to keep an even keel between both sides, since I can see each perspective on this mess.

Maybe "dictatorship" was the wrong word. How about "opressive regime"?

Since I can't really point to one individual. Actually, even though there are a several people involved, I can't even point to a select few who are the actual problems. So maybe it's not even a regime, but it definitely is an "opressive atmosphere".

I'm not involved enough with the inner workings of the PN management and support team (chat sessions, mailing lists, mettings etc.) to know, so I'm not laying blame. I'm BITCHING

Because a community that I am a part of is turning to shit and disgruntling many other people.

quote:
Question, what will it take for all of us to be able to move on?

I am moving on, I'm just a little pissed and a little disappointed.

Seeing that in my mind, all of the recently banned members were fairly good people that made quite a few contributions to the community, my advice would be:

- Un-ban the recently banned members
- Provide all of the recently banned members with specific statements that they made and the specific portion of the "Code of Conduct" or similar guideline that they violated and have that serve as their first warning with any other violation resulting in banning

If this has been done then I invite anyone who has been banned to post in this forum, their "warning", facts that they were provided and any other correspondence.

Thanks!
-Shawn

Shawn

Administrator

Posts: 4548
Registered: 10/7/2002
Status: Online

posted on 6/25/2004 at 03:36 PM

Oh, and Duster, mhalbrook and Spire2000,

Since you're in my forums, you're expected to do the following:

1) politely and accurately answer and resolve all support requests (when needed, shell or FTP to the users site and rectify any issues)
2) investigate and resolve all bug reports for all of my modules and provide me with the corrected code

Thanks!
-Shawn

[Edited on 6/25/2004 by Shawn]

Duster

Junior Member

Posts: 32
Registered: 2/15/2004
Status: Offline

posted on 6/25/2004 at 05:22 PM

I'd be pleased to, Shawn, but there aren't any questions on the first two pages that I am qualified to answer. The best I could do is joke with smurfie to show him that this is a friendly forum. I'm not sure he caught on that it was joking though.

jstuckemeyer

Moderator

Posts: 579
Registered: 12/29/2003
Status: Offline

posted on 6/26/2004 at 04:04 PM

ROFL.

I'm gone a week and people are still arguing over the Postnuke banning crusade? Yee gawds - some people need to get a life.

Having said that, Duster is the closest to right. You really should think about it Halbrook - you are a decent enough guy, but as a moderator you are a hypocrit.

jstuckemeyer - aka AutoThemes ..... part of the "Banned of Brothers"

[Edited on 26/6/2004 by jstuckemeyer]

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Shawn

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posted on 6/26/2004 at 04:58 PM

quote:
ROFL.

I'm gone a week and people are still arguing over the Postnuke banning crusade? Yee gawds - some people need to get a life.

Having said that, Duster is the closest to right. You really should think about it Halbrook - you are a decent enough guy, but as a moderator you are a hypocrit.

jstuckemeyer - aka AutoThemes ..... part of the "Banned of Brothers"

[Edited on 26/6/2004 by jstuckemeyer]

Go for another couple weeks or I'll ban you here, ftard!

-Shawn

jstuckemeyer

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Posts: 579
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Status: Offline

posted on 6/26/2004 at 05:07 PM

You can't say ftard - the pnCorp will ban you (I know - since I used it LOL). Oh wait, this isn't their forum. Perhaps they will just dance around and curse your mother.

hehe

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Duster

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posted on 6/26/2004 at 05:38 PM

quote:
ROFL.

I'm gone a week and people are still arguing over the Postnuke banning crusade?

That's because Halbrook came here peddling his lies. I'm glad he did as it made it easy for me to expose him as a liar and control freak carrying around a load of prejudice about me.

Spire lied too, but he posted what sounded like an innocent appeal to end their embarrassment until one examines what he said on his home court. I don't know which one is worse. Halbrook lies openly. He doesn't try to hide it as Spire does. You should have stayed on the sidelines, Spire. You were doing OK up to that last post of yours, ignoring the nonsene about moving posts to a hidden forum instead of deleting them. You lost your neutrality with that lie.

At the very least Infopro should be unbanned. He was right. When Halbrook came here lying about me, he should have known how easy I could prove him a liar. Where are those posts wherein I initiated an attack on someone? They don't exist as MH claims. I have e-mail from CRS acknowledging that he initiated confrontations deliberately, and why. Your lies are less than intelligent claims to make, especialy when they are so easily revealed as lies. That alone is reason for anyone to question your intelligence.

If that isn't enough, to say I had no further value to offer proves MH is an idiot and Infopro was right. There are people laughing at that statement and the person who made it. MH, ask some of the PN developers if I had anything of value to offer. Ask third party developers I've helped recently the same. You'll find they disagree with you. Ask the developers at MD-Pro. They disagree with you in several languages.

I have never made an issue of my intelligence. It's just something I accept about myself like my hair color, height,etc. Besides, as I've pointed out to MH, it's mostly about knowledge as regards PN from the user standpoint. Even so, MH must feel threatened by my intelligence as he has brought it up a number of times. He even said once that he thought he was pretty smart and close to me in intelligence. Michael, you're not within 30 points of me and your recent statements and actions make me suspect the gap is considerably wider.

quote:

Having said that, Duster is the closest to right. You really should think about it Halbrook - you are a decent enough guy, but as a moderator you are a hypocrite

Even after all this, I think so too, in some ways. I think it is commendable that he tries to read every post on the PN forums . That can enable him to help as many people as possible. However, once he forms an opinion of someone, it colors his perceptions forever and he has a nasty tongue (see the church site review).

Furthermore, he will not admit to a mistake and thus lacks the decency to apologize. He is too controlling, even to telling people how they should word things. I knew it was bad news when he was made a forum moderator. Someone with his emotional problems should not be given any kind of control. The ODP suffers because of people just like him. The allow their pettiness and vindictiveness to hurt the project, just as MH does. For such people, getting their way is more important than anything, including the project they purport to want to help

I knew he would do everything in his power to come after me and anyone else he disagreed with him, though I expected to be at the top of the list.. He's bad for PN when he has any power. In a collaborative effort, he refuses to be a team player. He treated the FAQ as his private domain instead of thinking of the good of the community and cooperating with teammates. He learned nothing from his previous unilateral actions on the very same issue.

Infopro was right. It may not have seemed kind, but it was accurate. He should not have been banned for expressing the truth.